Curse

Robster Lobster · Feb 09, 2010, 09:03 PM // 21:03

The punishment for missing bulls is that it doesn't do anything. As in, you brought this skill, and if you don't use it correctly, you don't get any benefit. If warriors had infinite energy and could have every skill in the game on their bar then there wouldn't be a punishment for missing bulls, but as it is that skill is competing for space on your skill bar, and not using it effectively puts you at a big disadvantage compared to players that use all 8 skills.

I don't understand why you want Assassins and Dervishes to be more viable in the frontline roles. There is already a lot of diversity in the warrior class, and probably a lot of potential for more with the right balancing. Assassins have potential as a skirmish class, though I don't really know what niche Dervishes can fill.

The problem with trying to push them into frontline roles through skill balancing is that you can damage their unique 'flavour', and also (ironically) reduce diversity.

Here's an example (semi-stolen from Sirlin), imagine you have a character who is very slow, that's part of how he was designed. Unfortunately nobody uses him, because he's too slow. Characters aren't automatically non-viable because they're too slow, but in this case the benefits don't outweigh the downside. Is the solution to speed him up? But then he isn't a slow guy anymore, and you have a homogenised group of characters. Instead the solution is to buff him in another way that keeps everything unique about him, in fighting games slow characters can have super armour, which negates a downside of being too slow.

If you want to see more Dervishes and Assassins in the metagame then you can make Assassins better for skirmish play (or increase the potential for skirmish based play), and figure out a viable role that Dervishes can fill. Don't try and turn them into Warriors 2.0.

Corporeal Ghost · Feb 09, 2010, 09:56 PM // 21:56

Didn't want to put this in that other post, as it would have completely overshadowed anything else I had to say, but Bull's Strike is absolutely, 100% overpowered. And this is just fine.

You guys are confusing balance and well-designed skills. Basically, if a skill is designed well enough, its power-level can be completely off the charts and it's still healthy for the game. The best example of this, which I seem to be citing once every two or three posts, is Gale. Gale was quite possibly the most overpowered skill in Guild Wars for a period of...six months? And yet nearly everyone who played in that metagame remembers it as the best six months of GvG.

This is why warriors can be fundamentally overpowered (they were not, at least before the January 28th update--I haven't played anything non-codex since then) and it doesn't matter. Many of their staple skills are incredibly well-designed. Although there has been a general trend moving away from the better-designed skills since about Factions. DChop is becoming a rarity. Healsig is basically non-existant. Primal Rage has all but replaced Frenzy. Adrenaline in general is still a pretty amazing concept, though.

Dervishes suffer from the exact opposite of this. They have terrible skill design. Nothing on a dervish bar improves with player ability other than target selection and movement. Nothing creates interesting tactical decisions.

I have an irrational(?) hatred for assassins and what they do to the metagame, so I'm not going to open that can of worms.

kedde · Feb 09, 2010, 11:03 PM // 23:03

Bull's is about equal to when Blackout and Gale were extremely powerful.
They were extremely overpowered, but at the same time very well designed with no defined role, but near infinite ways to use them, and efficiency entirely based on a teameffort.

There's no reason to take that away, and even less reason to try and push poorly designed classes, skills and mechanics into the game when maintaining a somewhat balanced and entertaining metagame is difficult enough.

Killed u man · Feb 09, 2010, 11:33 PM // 23:33

Tough Monks had aegis, ward against melee and alot more means of defence back then. People seem to have forgotten that Bull's Strike comes from a time when there was big defence, and with Anet now tackling that defence one by one, so do they need to do with warrior utility, or we'll simply get to a state were damage > Monks.

Bobby2 · Feb 10, 2010, 01:18 AM // 01:18

Monks are still the most powerful class in the game

Revelations · Feb 10, 2010, 04:58 AM // 04:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Corporeal Ghost

Bull's Strike is absolutely, 100% overpowered. And this is just fine.

You guys are confusing balance and well-designed skills. Basically, if a skill is designed well enough, its power-level can be completely off the charts and it's still healthy for the game. The best example of this, which I seem to be citing once every two or three posts, is Gale. Gale was quite possibly the most overpowered skill in Guild Wars for a period of...six months? And yet nearly everyone who played in that metagame remembers it as the best six months of GvG.

This is why warriors can be fundamentally overpowered (they were not, at least before the January 28th update--I haven't played anything non-codex since then) and it doesn't matter.

I cannot possibly overstate the truth in this. There are skills that are just hands down fun to play with/against, and most of those few that are left belong to warriors in the current meta. Outside of primal, bull's is one of those fun skills. It makes for interesting little mindgames on both the giving and receiving end, which I wholeheartedly believe is healthy for gameplay.

I don't really see why you want dervishes and sins to be more viable. As far as I can tell, most of the remaining PvP community is aware that they're both terribly designed from ground up. All they ever really tend to accomplish is to ruin what might otherwise be decent metas.

Corporeal Ghost · Feb 10, 2010, 06:36 AM // 06:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Killed u man

we'll simply get to a state were damage > Monks.

Why is everyone so afraid of this? Remember when people actually died in GvG? That was waaaay better than 321ing your head into a wall for 28 minutes.

IMMORTAlMITCH · Feb 10, 2010, 09:07 AM // 09:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Killed u man

And this is why GvG is stale, and 99% of the community left... *And I mean the good part, the people who actually were half decent at the game*

Actually if anything people left because professions like assassins and dervishes were introduced to the game..

Killed u man · Feb 10, 2010, 01:06 PM // 13:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by IMMORTAlMITCH

Actually if anything people left because professions like assassins and dervishes were introduced to the game..

Think it's safe to say NF. When sins and rits got introduced, noone really used them. With the introduction of NF, all the OP skills came. (Walking trees, grenths, caster sin, SP, BoA, etc)

It just left a bad taste in people's mouth, which up to this day still overcomes any form of dialogue about re-incarniting them as an alternative frontliner (WHICH IS WHAT THEY ARE, let me explain it to you: In Guild Wars, a character can NOT solely rely on ganking. If it does, it simply isn't competitive because either you build wars them, or they build wars you. On top of that, with all the recent, negative, changes in GvG, splitting is about as useless as it gets, and only works if your opponent fcks up alot.)

And it's not that I perse want Sins and Dervishes to be frontliner, it's that I want an alternative than the 1 set build you can run in GvG. I've been playing different games now (WoW, tough on friends acount, I don't pay to play, runescape, RTS, etc), and come to the conclusion Guild Wars really is something special. (I've always said it, and heard it, but now I can truly understand it)

But just because that is true, regardless of what JR or anyone else has posted, doesn't mean there isn't room for any more frontliners.

The fact is that Sins and Dervishes exist in the game, aswell as paragon and rits. And they've consumed up to 40% of the available skills, aswell as dev time. It would be a shame to not even try to reincarnate those thousands of hours of work, because some people can't let go of 2 badly mechaniced classes getting introduced into a game when there was no need for.

And I think many believe seem to believe I think Bull's Strike is way overpowered. I don't. I agree exactly with the above that Bull's Strike, AND dshot AND diversion are the good kind of OP. But at the same time, those are all skills which prevent alot of other builds to be run, because they are simply so good at what they do.

So part of introducing new frontline classes, but you can stretch this on to any bar in specific, is toming down the already existing powerhouse.

Why would anyone everyone ever run any shutdown other than a dom mes? You wouldn't, simply because it's so good at what it does. I agree that a dom mes requires alot of skill, and ping, to work, but at the same time you can't deny that a dom mes overshadows just about every other form of shutdown. (Ranger E-denial, etc)

Tough right now, it's not needed for more shutdown builds to exist, so Dom is fine. But the game is so stale, for me anyways, and I'm tired of always having to roll a Warrior when I want to do big damage, for atleast the past 5 years that is. And as I said, there is 2 frontline classes just lying there rotting, I might aswell brainstorm ideas as to how we can use them in non-degenerative builds.

Revelations · Feb 10, 2010, 02:23 PM // 14:23

The adrenaline system is without a doubt one of the most desirable and game defining mechanics that GW has to offer. In addition to such well-designed skills as bull's strike, frenzy, and dchop it is one of the main reasons why warriors have achieved the position of most consistent frontline. It rewards clever positioning and target selection with an actual mechanical payout - namely your skills recharging faster.

Without a similar such system arises the question of where dervish and assassin skills should fit into a balance spectrum. Adrenaline is likely out of the question, it's most similar counterpart on dervishes and assassins is recharge time. So to balance a given dervish skill with a warrior one of equal power the first and most obvious choice is to assign the dervish skill's recharge to a value roughly approximating how long it takes the warrior skill to fully build adrenaline. But here's the issue - for different players adrenaline is accrued at different rates, so at which of these rates do you approximate recharge?

At one extreme, you can make the skill recharge at the rate it takes a top warrior to gain the approximate adrenaline value. In which case the skill ends up with a ridiculously low effort-reward ratio for everyone concerned, which is obviously undesirable. However, increasing the recharge anywhere beyond this is going to make the skill undesirable at higher levels of play anyway because warriors simply do it better.

I'm aware that you're suggesting possible functionality changes to dervish and assassin skills, but the fact is that they're flawed from the ground up. It's not the skills that are an issue, it's the class mechanics, and at this late stage we'd all be RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOing dreaming if we thought Anet was going to change anything other than a few skills.

/End3AMrant. I'll honestly be amazed if that still makes sense when I wake up.

Killed u man · Feb 10, 2010, 02:37 PM // 14:37

I fully agree Revelations. The largest factor to take into concideration is adrenaline. And I've tought about it, pretty much exactly like you did. Because in essence, you COULD change all adrenaline skills to "free energy recharging skills" as to when they would have been build anyways. (For example a Primal warrior on average has a dismember every what 6-8 seconds?)

And that's how I came to think, instead of having a set recharge time on skills, let's have a dynamic one. And that's where the shutdown comes in. Much like a warrior who MIGHT build one dismember every 15-20 seconds if getting camped by a bsurge, so will "my sin", because using attack skills and MISSING THEM will cause them to take 10 seconds to recharge.

This still is faster than a for a warrior, BUT Warrior will do more DPS. I've also completely reworked the attack chain sequence so that simply activation an attack (Lead will most likely hit anyways, the problem lies in the Offhand, which is usually the "jump" skill to the dual attack, which is the true power of a sins damage), mainly the offhand attack here, will count as "offhand attack used". So even if the sin gets blinded on his offhand, he can STILL use his dual once blind gets removed. (Or if he feels lucky)

But on the counter-side, he used his offhand while blind, so he will be punished for being "bad" and thus get a 10 second recharge penalty on it.
In a way, you can't deny this does promote active awareness as to who is doing what on the battlefield.

Sure, a warrior has to watch positioning, and that's something we can never truly implement on any other character (due to lack of adrenaline), but my system definatly does reward good players, and punish the bad ones. (Good ones = many fast combos for big pressure, and bad = barely one combo every 10 seconds *A combo with overal 150-200 damage)

So in a way, a bad sin who keeps spamming his attack skills on guardianed Monks, while blind or blurred, or even out of chain, whilst still being able to use his combo, will only be able to use it once every 10 seconds. This will result in an overal DPS of +- 20, with whatever auto attack in between. So let's assume 30. Whereas a good sin, who hits unprotted targets, and waits out blinds can get more combos in, or atleast has the ability to do so, and can get upwars of 60-70 DPS. (1 combo every 4 seconds)

It's still not as ideal as the adrenaline system, I agree, but it comes pretty darn close skill/reward ratio... Mainly because the 1/2, 1S activation attack skills will require you to pay constant attention to enemy shutdown.

Because if you look at raw numbers, a BAD warrior will most definatly also do around 30-40, even 50 DPS simply by hitting sht. And good warrior can then go upwards 60-70 (Conjures) with offcourse actual decent usage of dw + finishers and interrupts.

TheHaxor · Feb 10, 2010, 04:19 PM // 16:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Killed u man

Think it's safe to say NF. When sins and rits got introduced, noone really used them. With the introduction of NF, all the OP skills came. (Walking trees, grenths, caster sin, SP, BoA, etc)

People ran sin split in factions.

Killed u man · Feb 10, 2010, 05:23 PM // 17:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheHaxor

People ran sin split in factions.

Yeah, but that was only BoA, no? Wasn't in NF which introduced the rly big damage combos with Blades of Steel and Shadow Prison?

Truth is, I don't rly need too much details of GvG post Factions, pre-NF, but I definatly do not recall Sinsplit being all that dominant. I gues it was more like what Kaon Action Team's byob is today. It works, to a certain extend, but a good team is never really going to loose to it.

And back then, splitting in general was still worth, so you still had an excuse to run a sin.

But if people did run sinsplit, I stand corrected, and I rephrase that statement so that NF simply introduced the big damage spike sin. (Teleport spike)

Bobby2 · Feb 10, 2010, 05:41 PM // 17:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Killed u man

But if people did run sinsplit, I stand corrected, and I rephrase that statement so that NF simply introduced the big damage spike sin. (Teleport spike)

This was pretty big for its time I heard

Killed u man · Feb 10, 2010, 05:57 PM // 17:57

Well yeah, but that could hardly kill a flagger or Monk. That could/can kill an NPC, maybe a caster given he hits it for another 4-5 seconds after the combo, or simply a Monk/flagger afk.

Blades of Steel/Death Blossoms are the true big damage builds. This build do calculated 6 base dagger attacks, and +- (Not knowing the old stats on HoTO or other skills) 160 armor ignoring damage + a DW. Base dagger attacks are what, around 20-25 damage? So that' results in a 450-500 damage spike including the shock.

Given it was viable at that time, but nowhere near as close to what a BBcombo, or a SP combo with Impale did. (Those do about 500-600 damage + DW)

EDIT: And the main straight came from AoD which allowed you to teleport all over the map at that time. But that was a bad thing, because you virtually had 1 character on 2 parts of the map. (So you were fighting 9v8)
And people used sins not because they were so much better, though they could kill a NPC, only once every 20 seconds so it was really slow, but because in those days Elites were used on pretty much every damage dealer.

I'm convinved that if people could run 2 elites, they would have still opted for a W/A Devhammer/AoD rather than this Shock/AoD. It was definatly a good build at that time, but solely because AoD carried it.

JR · Feb 10, 2010, 06:38 PM // 18:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Killed u man

Think it's safe to say NF. When sins and rits got introduced, noone really used them. With the introduction of NF, all the OP skills came. (Walking trees, grenths, caster sin, SP, BoA, etc)

It seems you are forgetting a rather large period of time.

Pre-Nightfall there were a lot of sin split builds using AoD, in addition to a few Temple Strike and Shadow Shroud (later run on Mesmers in spike builds) abusing builds. All of those elites were much more powerful in their initial incarnations.

Ritualists also had significant balance problems, with turtle builds using Ritual Lord rits, and later the more flexible Soul Twisting builds. I'm pretty sure Clamour spike was around pre-Nightfall too.

Nightfall skills brought their fair share of problems too, but it's incorrect to say that Assassins and Rits were less of an issue before that.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Killed u man

Well yeah, but that could hardly kill a flagger or Monk. That could/can kill an NPC, maybe a caster given he hits it for another 4-5 seconds after the combo, or simply a Monk/flagger afk.

E/Mo party-bots were popular at around that time, which pretty much had to do nothing but spam blind to hold off a solo assassin, and to stop it killing NPCs. This kept them from running flags, meaning another character had to, and with the Assassins ridiculous mobility it was quite easy to jump that character and return the flag every time.

Killed u man · Feb 10, 2010, 07:02 PM // 19:02

I was waiting for you to jump in. Yeah, as I said, I don't remember too much about the Factions-NF period, and I couldn't be asked wiki'ing skills (to see if they were NF or Factions).

I do remember Ritlord getting used in HA, but in GvG? I gues this was back when spirits had insane health and levels.

But that's rits, I believe rits are viable enough nowadays, and paragons to a lesser extend. (Clamour of souls spike? I doubt that could've worked in GvG, maybe at VoD when all the npc's ball up, but other than that...)

And all those builds were based on imbalanced mechanics which are all nerfed. (Spirits, shadowsteps)

That they had to keep a flagger at base for the sin is true, but so is what I said. If people could, they would've simply ran a warrior with AoD and Dev Hammer. So that wasn't really the sin being viable, but more the mapwide shadowsteps. (Which also posed as a severe Hero Battles *RIP* problem)

My intital point was that sins (The combo class rather than singled out broken elites: shadow shroud, expose defences, shadowsteps) really never got to see any competitive use solely because the chain attack system does not work in it's current state.

Either you're going to make chains too conditional (Dual Attacks require an Offhand Attack) and force them to rely on gimmicky ways to guarantee the completion of your Offhand Attack (Shadow prison and AoD which allowed for offhand starters, or Backbreaker which shuts them down at the same time aswell) which only really work in the lower end arenas, or when you overload them with it. (BBsins get progressively stronger the more you have of them in your team)

Or you're going to make them too unconditional and allowed for brainless spam to exist. The pressure is there, but the skill/reward ratio is completely messed up. R/A's are proof of this.

And thus my conclusion: The combo sin does not work. The big damage spike combo sin. Low damage, fast recharing, conditional attack skills is the way to go. It's still nothing like a warrior (So it ain't warrior 2.0), can pressure just like a warrior, and follows a similar skill/reward ratio. It isn't that hard to implement, and I can't see it getting abused. (Once R/A's get nerfed)

I Jonas I · Feb 10, 2010, 07:13 PM // 19:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Revelations

The adrenaline system is without a doubt one of the most desirable and game defining mechanics that GW has to offer. In addition to such well-designed skills as bull's strike, frenzy, and dchop it is one of the main reasons why warriors have achieved the position of most consistent frontline. It rewards clever positioning and target selection with an actual mechanical payout - namely your skills recharging faster.

Without a similar such system arises the question of where dervish and assassin skills should fit into a balance spectrum. Adrenaline is likely out of the question, it's most similar counterpart on dervishes and assassins is recharge time. So to balance a given dervish skill with a warrior one of equal power the first and most obvious choice is to assign the dervish skill's recharge to a value roughly approximating how long it takes the warrior skill to fully build adrenaline. But here's the issue - for different players adrenaline is accrued at different rates, so at which of these rates do you approximate recharge?

At one extreme, you can make the skill recharge at the rate it takes a top warrior to gain the approximate adrenaline value. In which case the skill ends up with a ridiculously low effort-reward ratio for everyone concerned, which is obviously undesirable. However, increasing the recharge anywhere beyond this is going to make the skill undesirable at higher levels of play anyway because warriors simply do it better.

I'm aware that you're suggesting possible functionality changes to dervish and assassin skills, but the fact is that they're flawed from the ground up. It's not the skills that are an issue, it's the class mechanics, and at this late stage we'd all be RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOing dreaming if we thought Anet was going to change anything other than a few skills.

/End3AMrant. I'll honestly be amazed if that still makes sense when I wake up.

As for balancing Assassins:
You could make all assassin attack skills have no recharge, but make every attack skill cost like 10 or 15 energy. So when assassins attack they get energy via critical strikes, which lets them use attack skills much like a warrior gains adrenaline when they attack so they can use attack skills.

This would similarly reward smart positioning and movement on the assassin class like those that you find on the warrior class, yet assassins would still have their own uniqueness because of the whole "my whole attack chain is ready the instant I engage in combat" thing.

The only issue is that there are skills like "blood is power" that would make assassins retardedly good. So you'd need to either modify blood is power, blood ritual and other skills like them so they have a different functionality, or you would have to add some kind of 3rd status bar, besides health and energy, that functions in a way similar to the way I described energy above.

Dervishes could be balanced in a way that mimics my proposed changes to assassins, but I'm not creative enough to think of a way to do it at the moment.

TheHaxor · Feb 10, 2010, 07:57 PM // 19:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Killed u man

Yeah, but that was only BoA, no? Wasn't in NF which introduced the rly big damage combos with Blades of Steel and Shadow Prison?

Sin split was huge in the GWFC and the seasons preceding it. EvIL ran sinsplit in a lot of their matches. Pretty much every major guild at the time ran at least one AoD sin in one situation or another. We saw the introduction of recall split (iB), which went on to dominate the game for a while if you remember.

The big damage combos weren't the big problem. The mobility was the biggest problem. Actually, the damage combos sins had back then were low damage comparatively, but at the time they were actually a pretty good amount of damage for the time. You could really mess up a target that didn't get protted or that got caught out of position.

Corporeal Ghost · Feb 10, 2010, 08:56 PM // 20:56

Disclaimer: I'm overtired and hopped up on caffeine again, so this may not all be coherent.

Responding to not-Borat first because these are shorter and people will not read to the bottom.

Quote:

Originally Posted by I Jonas I

3rd status bar, besides health and energy, that functions in a way similar to the way I described energy above.

You mean like adrenaline?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Revelations

The adrenaline system is without a doubt one of the most desirable and game defining mechanics that GW has to offer...It rewards clever positioning and target selection with an actual mechanical payout - namely your skills recharging faster.

Just because it needed to be said again.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Killed u man

Think it's safe to say NF. When sins and rits got introduced, noone really used them. With the introduction of NF, all the OP skills came. (Walking trees, grenths, caster sin, SP, BoA, etc)

EviL dominated the ladder and went to the semifinals of GWFC running dual assassin all the way. iQ played Ritual Lord (and later Soul Twisting) heavily, and it was decisive in their famous GlyphSacShower matches, both in the GWFC and obviously in the QQ match that caused the drama explosion. Not to mention Rits enabled all sorts of overpowered invincible necrogarbage, including but not limited to EW FoC spike, SBRI, and several incarnations of blood spike.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Killed u man

In Guild Wars, a character can NOT solely rely on ganking. If it does, it simply isn't competitive because either you build wars them, or they build wars you.

Again, EviL did this up until iQ invented turtle + NPC ball, regardless of what the other team was running. Several guilds dominated the ladder with dedicated splits up until somewhere around the Celestial tournament (when everyone quit the game). There was an entire metagame based around YAA. Can you think of a more useless stand skill? Maybe Horns of the Ox (has also seen heavy play)? If your (non-lord damage--BLASPHEMY!) splits are losing to build wars, you're doing it wrong. Splits have always been the build wars answer. For years, that was the entire answer to hex pressure, omegaspike, and cow-style punch-you-in-the-face builds. Maybe it's different at the top of the ladder now, but in the sub300--probably more like sub100 now; it's been awhile--range, you can literally just run into their base with one to three offensive guys to break up a stagnant/losing stand game.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Killed u man

On top of that, with all the recent, negative, changes in GvG, splitting is about as useless as it gets, and only works if your opponent fcks up alot.)

I predict lord damage + defenseball wins the next mAT. Arguably, it should have won this one, but YMCA basically just let their lord die...to a split. So much for that theory.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Killed u man

And it's not that I perse want Sins and Dervishes to be frontliner, it's that I want an alternative than the 1 set build you can run in GvG.

This is pretty stupid. I can give you at least ten or fifteen warrior builds that have been run in high-level play, all with completely different functionality. Conversely, assassins have had three builds--shadowstep around the map for gank/collapses, instagib someone, and spam fast attack skills. Dervishes have had one buildL use overpowered deep wound skill on recharge. Grenth was pretty much the same thing except said deep wound skill also stripped enchantments.

Moreover, you're just bitching to bitch here. Warriors were designed to be the damage class. Just as mesmers were designed to shut people down and monks were designed to keep people alive. As ludicrous as this sounds, you don't hear anyone bitching because their monk doesn't have enough shutdown. That's not how the game was coded; warriors do damage, monks mitigate damage, mesmers shut people down offensively, etc. etc. Why are you so fixated on this one role being pidgeonholed to warriors, especially since every time a non-warrior has had viable warrior-level DPS, it has been absolutely disastrous for the metagame?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Killed u man

The fact is that Sins and Dervishes exist in the game, aswell as paragon and rits. And they've consumed up to 40% of the available skills, aswell as dev time. It would be a shame to not even try to reincarnate those thousands of hours of work, because some people can't let go of 2 badly mechaniced classes getting introduced into a game when there was no need for.

These are sunk costs. Kill off all four of those. They are unnecessary, screwing up the game, and as you so astutely pointed out, eating up precious developer time. Rits have arguably found a niche, but it's not one I think needs to exist, especially given the unremovable nature of weapon spells (assuming enchantment removal ever becomes sane again, at least). Weapon spells mandate that interrupts stay high on the power curve, something that is questionable given how many complaints there are (were) about server advantage.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Killed u man

And I think many believe seem to believe I think Bull's Strike is way overpowered. I don't. I agree exactly with the above that Bull's Strike, AND dshot AND diversion are the good kind of OP. But at the same time, those are all skills which prevent alot of other builds to be run, because they are simply so good at what they do.

You're missing the point. Either you see that it's a positive thing that these types of skills are overpowered (and DShot and Diversion both have issues at the moment which I'm not going into here), or you want them to be on par with other skills to have a more varied metagame. You can't have it both ways.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Killed u man

Why would anyone everyone ever run any shutdown other than a dom mes? You wouldn't, simply because it's so good at what it does.

This is a re-hash of your flawed "we need non-warrior damage" argument. Additionally, there WAS variety in shutdown. ANet blanket-nerfed non-interrupt shutdown starting at roughly factions. Shame and Diversion have been nerfed since then. And you know what? They're actually played MORE now, simply because there are no other options left.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Killed u man

roll a Warrior when I want to do big damage, for atleast the past 5 years that is.

You've been doing it wrong for at least the last year, then. Paragons and (fotm turret) Rangers have been a known quantity for that entire time, and do more reliable, more unpredictable, more time-compressed damage than warriors. That is, their damage wound up mattering more. Paragons even had comparable deep wound recharge.